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 Post subject: RAIDS - Input needed
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:59 pm 
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Guys,
The minute the raid finished tonight numbers dropped to virtually nil.

We've gotten ourselves into a dangerous situation, we've been scheduling nights to specific raids. So that Friday & Saturday nights mean hard mode and Sunday means normals. That means that the people not "selected" for the hard-modes have no reason to log in. Those of us doing the raids are now bored, those of us not doing them are bored for a different reason.

If we don't sort this out I can see the guild folding. What should we do?

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 Post subject: Re: RAIDS - Input needed
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:05 pm 
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My suggestion is a mid-week raid night, and then a week-end one.

Open signups, we decide where we're going once we have the names. Preferably aiming for 16mans but ready to go to 8 if the numbers aren't high enough. If people aren't getting hard enough raids for them then they arrange them outside the guild runs.

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 Post subject: Re: RAIDS - Input needed
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:17 pm 
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- Bring raids back to 2 or 3 instead of 4, maybe trying to get 16man normals going on a regular basis.
- Let's start using the guild bank for raid repairs so that people don't feel the need to grind money to raid. I'll make a large donation to cover this for a while.

What kind of disappointed me tonight is that people are not willing to put the time in to get mechanics down. 2 more rakata pieces is not going to help if we don't have the mechanics down. That's what I personally enjoy in a raid, but for most regulars it seems to have become a boring gear grind.

We only got Soa down on Hard last week, 3-4 months after launch. Karagga's only about 2-3 weeks ago. We haven't even touched nightmare. The new raid we are only on the 2nd boss on the lowest difficulty. There is still a lot of challenges to be had but if it's just about gear then yeah it will become boring quickly.

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 Post subject: Re: RAIDS - Input needed
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:29 pm 
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I think we got to a point where we were trying to cater to everyone and get full groups for all OPS but it ends up being the same people most of the time. We either need to scale it back or have totally different groups which means more numbers signing up for them so people are not having to run 3-4 times a week to cover empty spots. Are we picking the wrong nights/times for the normal modes as we seam to have full hard mode groups. Ill post annother thread for people to post in stating what mode they wanna run and when.
see viewtopic.php?f=48&t=7891 for signup.

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 Post subject: Re: RAIDS - Input needed
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:12 pm 
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Grim wrote:
What kind of disappointed me tonight is that people are not willing to put the time in to get mechanics down. 2 more rakata pieces is not going to help if we don't have the mechanics down. That's what I personally enjoy in a raid, but for most regulars it seems to have become a boring gear grind.


Sorry that disappoints you dude. The thought of spending 5 hours & 150k wiping repeatedly for the first of three consecutive nights isn't my idea of fun. We've been doing that for weeks now. I'm all for challenge but it seems we've constantly been switching to modes that are beyond our range since day one. You may well be geared for the new stuff but I'd argue the rest of us aren't. I still need 4 pieces of Rakata, as does BW, Fei needs 7(!) I don't know about Clouds, Kam or BB. That's a lot of gear and it'd make a difference.

A month ago we were getting 20+ people online on a Friday night, tonight we have 4. I put that down to the fact that Friday is seen as Hard night and those not taking part don't feel that includes them. We need to switch to doing what we can, rather than what we'd ideally like to.

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 Post subject: Re: RAIDS - Input needed
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:27 pm 
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Fei Speaking now - In my opinion we have been greedy and selfish with the raids, i felt pulled into the raids too soon, along with a few other people who were undergeared when i started raiding. Now we have some ok gear and have become the regular raiders, but each week its about what these top people need in terms of loot drops, and the ones a little behind are once again having to take on raids that are beyond them gear wise. We have a good core of well geared players now, and rather than catering to these few peoples needs, we should be using that position to help those with no gear to get some, even if this means running 4 mans for colomi parts rather than the raids. The people that raid each week are boring of the content, and the people that are consistently left out are being consistently left out, as a result they are no longer logging in, and we are lucky to get our 8 mans on the go.

Our focus should be on getting everyone to a level where they can tackle the 2 hard modes, and when they are geared from that, we are ready for the new content. There is a clear progression in the raids, and starting with the absolute hardest raid each weekend is somewhat elitist of us, and not fair on the others. Assuming that this discussion prompts people to log in again, in the hope of getting some of the gear, we should be organising 16 man raids. If we have 15-20 players online, we should just go and run an 8 man, no organisation, just group up and go, any night of the week. It was 8 in a group in SWG, 5 in WOW, its not difficult to get 8 people. We should be carrying as many fresh lvl50's through the 16 man raids on a friday and saturday night, and once everyone has collected there loot from these 2 raids, they are in a much better position to tackle a hard mode, or the new raid. We run the risk of losing our fresh lvl50's due to neglect and our veteran (geared lvl50's) due to repition and constant wiping in a rad thats too difficult. I still need things from both EV and Karaga's HM, and it took me a few weeks of normal modes to get to the point where i could start thinking about the hard modes. There is too big a gap between lvl50 and what we are trying to achieve each week, as a result, no one is logging in any more. Im repeating myself somewhat now, so ill end this post
Peace and fun to all
Fei

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 Post subject: Re: RAIDS - Input needed
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:06 am 
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I don't get it. In one thread people are saying they are bored with running the same dungeons over and over again and now that's the solution.

New raid story mode is the same as old raid hard mode difficulty wise. The only difference is the new mechanics. We killed the first boss after 2 people dropped early on with 1 of them remaining down for the entire fight and we didn't even hit enrage till the last second. That's with half of our DPS tonight in only columi gear as well. The story mode of this raid exists to get rakata gear, not the other way around.

It's not more difficult, it's just new, something we need to learn. Just like we had to learn the other fights. I thought that would make the ops more interesting for those of us who can beat the others fairly easily now. I'm fine with just doing the old ones if that's what you guys want though.

We are also still running as much normal modes as we are hard modes each week and many of us well geared people are regularly helping out there even though we've not needed any gear from those modes in months. I don't see what's so unfair or elitist, there has been a natural raid progression in the guild from the start and many people have already climbed up to hard modes because of it. We can always do more to make it even better but I don't think that's ever been the big problem.

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 Post subject: Re: RAIDS - Input needed
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:19 am 
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Grim wrote:
I don't get it. In one thread people are saying they are bored with running the same dungeons over and over again and now that's the solution.


You're greatly over-simplifying this. I'm getting sick running both dungeons twice a weekend, big difference. There's only 3 raids, of course we're going to be repeating content.

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 Post subject: Re: RAIDS - Input needed
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:46 am 
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kai-ying wrote:
You're greatly over-simplifying this. I'm getting sick running both dungeons twice a weekend, big difference. There's only 3 raids, of course we're going to be repeating content.

I misunderstood you then. Still, we are ignoring 1 raid while it can provide a much needed content addition.

Let's hear some other opinions :)

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 Post subject: Re: RAIDS - Input needed
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:01 am 
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I seem to be on the other side, aside from the Rakghoul event which has been a nice change Ops are about the only thing I really log in for as I find them fun and challenging regardless of the difficulty, the size and makeup of the group also means there's never 2 quite the same (all the best stories also come from ops), whereas I'm sick to death of running very samey dailies and PvP, and while flashpoints are fun the first couple of times each they're too structured with the small group so it's the same pattern every time. The rewards for repeat completions are also pretty poor even for new 50s as there's only that 1 in 4 (or less if you're grouped with someone of the same class) chance you might get that Columi piece you want, or a few Tionese commendations, when you can get 3 or 4 nice bits of loot in a NM op which really doesn't take that much longer in some cases.

TL;DR; Ops are what I enjoy most, offer the best loot by far, and really aren't that scary. We should do more, whenever we have the numbers and leave flashpoints for when it's quieter, as a warm-up, or just a bit of fun. Sod dailies!


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 Post subject: Re: RAIDS - Input needed
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 2:41 am 
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While I still think one or two organised things should be there, I'm liking the sound of the 'get up and go' approach myself too. It might encourage people to log in out of more than just a sense of obligation. 16 man runs definitely sound interesting too. More of us in one run can only mean more balls ups to laugh at :lol:

Personally I can't help but feel guilty when I sign up for something like Karagga's that has only one tank slot. Like I'm barring some of the newer tanks in the guild from making the step up to running ops.

P.S. That said... Dibs on a spot in the first 16 man Karagga's run :P

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 Post subject: Re: RAIDS - Input needed
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:06 am 
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For me I have that delicate problem that I can only raid every second weekend due to how I work. Which for me is kinda boring. So it would be nice to some changes in which days we run OP's. So for me I just do some dailies and now some more due to that Rakghoul-infestestion, and when no one in our guild or hardly anyone on the fleet is running HM's I have nothing to do after that. And running HM's is only for gearing my sentinel alt. Kinta.

This is ofc a selfish though, but I would like to see more people online in our guild through recruiting people into the guild. I "accidently" joined an imp-guild yesterday evening. Was playing around with my inquisitor and some people wanted to group up for some leveling. Thought is was a groupinvite, but it was a guildinvite :D And these guys(Spark of evil) had 30 people online about 22:00(swede time). For me that shows a little more dynamic what can be done. I like to see more spontanious thinking in the guild, but then we need more people.....

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 Post subject: Re: RAIDS - Input needed
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:22 am 
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its ok to invite more people to the guild but the bigger the guild, the more organised it has to be, believe me there are alot of poeple out there that wont think twice to jumping ship the moment it suits them regardless of how much effort the guild has done to help them in HM and raids.

Now i know i dont attend raids all that often due to work, but the raids i have been on have been very successfull ones, i was pleased to be part of the guilds first kill on soa hard last week. I have posted in the other thread about my available times.

i can understand a few peeps are getting bored with the raids, but there is only 3 after all, i agree with the mass atm 16 mans seem the next step, more poeple raiding at one time is only a good thing and the raids themselves tend to be easier as daft as it may sound, in wow the 25 mans seemed alot easier then the 10man version.

i would love to see some raid hard/normal on tuesdays or wednesdays, or even on one of these nights were we can get some HM pawnage going on.

one thing i learned form wow in a guild i was in, we invited so many people and had no problem filling a 25 man, even turning down 10+ more peeps form the raid, problem was half of them were crap and expected to be spoon fed alot of the time. we soon realised we had a quantity>quality problem and lost some good raiders because of it.

i would say by all means invite more to guild but make it clear what your offering, are u looking for peeps to fill regular raid spots or are u after peeps that are just pure into alts/FP etc.


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 Post subject: Re: RAIDS - Input needed
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:37 am 
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i personally think too much is made of gear.

I know it's a theme park mmo and so gear progression is part of end game but i don't think you necessarily to have ground dailies for all implants/earpieces/mods before you can do a story mode raid. I also don't think that rakata gear is the big deal it's made out to be, it is step up from columi but not a huge one, i see it more as a prestige thing to have full rakata. There is no reason folk can't raid story mode in their regular level 50 gear as long as they have kept it up to date when they were leveling (we all started somewhere) and then do HM's once they have mainly columi pieces. I'd like to see some new 50's jumping into the easier raids, cycling out for certain bosses if needed (remember we don't need to keep the same group make-up throughout the raid).

how does the mechanic work for leaving a raid half finished. If you came back the next night could people who hadn't done the first part of the raid take part in the latter stages? Just wondering if we can get some relays going where we do the same raid across a couple of nights so it's not one big slog. That way you could organise it so newer 50's can jump in and out of the raid for easier bosses/loot and the experienced folk taking part could treat it like a relay, handing over to others on different nights.

New people to the guild is useful but we have to make sure we have something to offer. I'd like to see some concrete plans about what we are going to do with the guild bank and then maybe set up a sub-forum for crafting requests so that folk leveling up alts/mains can request some crafted gear from our high end crafters to help them out.

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 Post subject: Re: RAIDS - Input needed
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:46 am 
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Can't find the page now, but I read somewhere that HM/OP resets themselfs after 1 hour when no one is inside em.

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